National Security in Crisis: How Geopolitical Chaos Threatens Cybersecurity & Democracy with Mike LeFever

Justin Beals

Hello everyone and welcome to Secure Talk. I'm your host, Justin Beals. 

In today's increasingly polarized world, the line between security and diplomacy has never been more crucial or more challenged. 

We are witnessing unprecedented turmoil within our federal government: career officials being escorted out of buildings, abrupt policy reversals, and the dismantling of agencies before understanding their function. 

This chaos isn't just bureaucratic reshuffling.It's undermining our government's ability to function effectively both at home and abroad. 

As we navigate through what many are calling a constitutional crisis, I find myself wondering, what happens when we tear down systems before understanding how they work? What are the consequences when institutional knowledge and expertise are dismissed rather than leveraged? 

And what are the costs when we abandon soft power in favor of purely kinetic solutions?.

 

These questions aren't just academic. They have real implications for our national security, the safety of our service members, and America's standing in the global community. The recent gutting of USAID has left humanitarian crises unaddressed. Federal workers with irreplaceable expertise in nuclear security were terminated and then hastily rehired when the consequences became apparent.

From the battlefields of Ukraine, to the hallways of our own federal agencies, we're witnessing the fallout of decisions made without strategic foresight. 

Well, today I'm thrilled to welcome back one of my favorite guests from last year, someone who brings unparalleled expertise in navigating these treacherous waters. He's a leader who has operated at the highest levels of national security while understanding the delicate balance between military power and diplomatic influence. 

My guest today is Vice Admiral Mike Lefevre, U.S. Navy and concentric CEO. After four decades of service, he completed his military career as the Director of Strategic Operational Planning at the National Counterterrorism Center. Renowned for navigating cross-cultural environments and building high-performance teams, Mike has been responsible for significant achievements in U.S. national security, private sector growth and profitability. 

Please join me today in welcoming Mike, having an insightful conversation about leadership during crisis, finding common ground in divided times, and maintaining a strategic focus when chaos threatens to overwhelm.

Justin Beals:  Hello, everyone, and welcome back to SecureTalk. One of my favorite guests from last year, and I'm so grateful to have met you. I'm gonna say, friend, I love building this relationship, but we have Michael LeFever with us from Concentric, and I really appreciate you rejoining the podcast this year, Michael. A lot has changed since we talked.

Mike LeFever: Same. That's for sure, Justin, for sure. Thank you. I enjoyed it as well.

Justin Beals:  Yeah, great. You have had a storied career in security, of course, in the military, in a leadership role, challenging scenarios geopolitically, and managing relationships at a nation-state level. And also recently, in security strategy, for your current business.

And I thought we might catch up there a little bit. You know, maybe we'll start on the lightweight side of these conversations and tell us what's been happening at Concentric for you guys?. How has business been over the last year?

Mike LeFever: Yeah, I tell people it's a good news, bad news story. Bad news is we're in an environment where people feel insecure. When you see, particularly after the incident with the healthcare individual that was gunned down in the streets of New York City, you're in that environment where people no longer feel like the normal mechanisms keep them secure. 

You see people that are normal citizens but are in particular jobs or influential jobs that sometimes attract attention from both good sides and bad sides. And so they're feeling somewhat insecure about their security and their environment, their families and loved ones. And so in that regard, that's the bad news is that we've gotten to that position. And then I jokingly say, well, if you're in the security business, well, that makes business pretty much booming, because people are very concerned about their well-being and those around them.

Justin Beals: Yeah. And I think, I'd love for you, from your perspective as a CEO, to remind our listeners what Concentric does in the marketplace.

Mike LeFever: Yeah, we provide physical and privacy security. We're mainly using an ultra-high net worth, high net worth individuals and family offices. So we provide that sense of security from physical security, drivers and support, and augmentation, domestic and internationally, as well as we provide due diligence. We provide intelligence products, We provide certification for tax purposes for folks that need it, that justify why they have a security detail, and then we also provide embedded employees for their offices or support that it's intelligence agents, it's also security professionals, but it's also background screening and background checks for some of the individuals that are associated with their home household security details, private resources and so forth. And so it's an interesting business to be in for sure.

Justin Beals:  Incredibly interesting. you know, I think I've talked a lot over the last year with a lot of people that work on cybersecurity and very high tech things. But this is where the rubber beats the road a little bit from security perspective, you know, a human being, their family, their assets that they've acquired, you know, in a legal way and in a way that we as a society have, you know, provided space for.

Mike LeFever: Yeah, it's such a polarized network. got a call from the other day from a friend, you know, and it's all about relationships, as you know. But it was interesting. Their company made a policy about a particular item that resulted in that individual because what his role was in this particular company became targeted for harassment from all sorts of venues, whether it's the social media, which we do some of that social media.

We also do some privacy that they can find information online fairly easily. And so we can office gate, we can go through a couple hundred different aggregate sites and take out that information. But it's now pretty easy for people to be targeted. For somebody that's discontent, I kind of say we kind of pop the genie out of the bottle with what's going on in today's society. And we've gotten so polarized, that has become very interesting in trying to help people.

Justin Beals: Yeah, it is a polarized society. We've been through a rough election process, I think, as a culture. And I think there's a lot of... I'm wondering, Mike, you're a fan of history, I think, like I am. As you look across the arc of, let's say, the United States or, you know, culture broadly, history as we know it, how do you think about where we are currently as a country from a political culture perspective?

Mike LeFever: Yeah, as you know, I think the pendulum swings quite a bit. And it tends to come back and center itself. This one, the Constitution in the United States, has been under stress, whether you talk about Jefferson, whether you talk about founding farm founders. And so, yeah, I worry about this one. This one seems to be little bit swing pretty hard.

And the items that concern me from some of the style of what's happening without a response from, we're starting to see responses now from folks. It'll be interesting, whether it's terrorists, whether it's freedom of speech, whether it's amendment rights, whether it's intimidation, whether it's retribution for some of the folks that were a part of it. 

The idea that we've,pardon some individuals that were responsible for assaulting police officers in the Capitol. All those are somewhat concerning. This, you know, kind of where are we and where is this going to settle out?

Justin Beals: You've operated in a lot of different countries with different political systems and cultures, and it must remind you of other scenarios you've seen. I have not worked as broadly, but have had the opportunity to do some business in Central and South America. And remember meeting with some colleagues in Santiago and having a chat with them, and them talking positively about the Pinochet because of a security perspective and I think as a gringo I was absolutely floored. I was like, oh my goodness. No, who in a way I was a little bit like who did we hire, you know, but they were they were great people. They were great contributors and it's funny. I'm also from the south. I think I'm navigating this a little bit culturally. I have friends that we don't agree with and and we're trying to find you know, common space. Yeah

Mike LeFever: Yeah, it is funny. I was actually on a ship were doing a kind of unitas cruise in South America, and it was during the Pinochet elections in Chile. And we actually were part of a US task force, and so was kind of like, probably shouldn't be seen. We went out to sea, but quite a lot of protests and some things going on, obviously in Pakistan, quite a bit with unfortunately, since 47, not any of the administrations ever lasted without a military coup. And so I was there at a time when Musharraf was stepping down. So it's interesting to watch in that idea, the crisis and chaos, and how do you navigate through that?

Justin Beals: The front lines of this change and that's always true in administrations, is our federal workforce, right? A group that you worked very closely with, we're a member of. I think I can't think of a colleague of mine that doesn't have a friend or a family that is also working in that workforce. You know, what's your thoughts about the challenges there right now and the changes?

Mike LeFever: Yeah, I think quite a bit on certainty about what's happening and what's going on. The information flow, the sense that one day they're working and the next day they're asked to leave or packed up and walked out of the office. There hasn't been a lot of the, I guess, you know, and I think from a perspective is, you know, it's good to have, you know, it's a fresh look.

Is looking at things that we haven't looked at in a while, I think you can easily say that there is probably bloat in areas. I think the sense, though, I get a feeling that many of those wonderful men and women that are in uniform and in civil service are experts in this field. And rather than embracing them and asking them to help change, because they have the background or knowledge.

It seems to be as we're going to we're going to tear this down, and then we'll see where the pain is and then build it back up. So it seems a little bit reversed. And in a lot of cases, you'd want to start with a strategy. What is that end state? What's that end game you're looking for? And then, OK, how do we how do we manage to do that in a form that, because in my style or whatever in leadership that I learned, it's you take care of people. Everything else takes care of itself.

And how do you treat and handle people in that manner that preserves them, but also makes them a part of the solution as well.

Justin Beals: It's interesting to me that I feel like you and I probably share this. I want to own that there are other opinions in the world, by the way to all our listeners, be very opinionated episode You're gonna hear a lot about what I think and Mike thinks, and so be patient with us.

All of my success in teams has been based upon respecting the expertise and potential of the teammates I worked alongside.

Mike LeFever: Correct.

Justin Beals: You share that with me, yeah. Yeah..

Mike LeFever 

Yep. absolutely.

Justin Beals: And there was a time when I was younger and I might have agreed with this, you know, broad sweeps of opinion like, you know, government is inefficient or government is bad.  But as I've grown and learned and met people that work in it. Almost everyone that I've met that works in the government has a deep expertise in what they do. Now they might be focused on what they have an affection for. I haven't met anybody that doesn't work hard, doesn't really try and doesn't care about what they do. Yeah.

Mike LeFever: Correct. Yeah, couldn't agree more. I don't think anybody wakes up in the morning and goes, ooh, wait till I get to work so I can screw this up. Let's see how I can make this just the visible failure. And it's separating those from well-meant intention to outright. And it's embracing that and trying to get them along in where your vision is and where it is. But it's the alignment of where you want to head and get everybody on board. 

It's classic team-building 101. And so we're in a state where I think we're tearing down the structure, and then we're going to figure out where it is and then build it back up. When I see the events like Department of Energy, where they walked out people and then realized that, ooh, they're a critical element in nuclear security and surety and stockpile and kind of went, oops, sorry. Now we've got to bring them back.

The personal harm on those individuals that now were somewhat, like you said, I think most people feel allegiance to their workplace and their environment. And then to be kind of treated and then go, oops, sorry, didn't mean that. Could you come back now? You've turned some trials, and as we all know, trust is such a big thing. Whenever you destroy that trust, how hard it is to rebuild that. And trust in the workforce and trust in your leadership is really key.

Justin Beals: And trust in the population. mean, one of the challenges in these things is that it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. We hate the government. We're going to reduce the government. Now what services you did have are being delivered. And that's frustrating because it only takes a little bit of foresight to realize that that's the path you're traveling.

Mike LeFever: Yeah. And what I worry about is we painted this wide brush that, you know, whatever the wokeness, the people or the, you know, the underground or whatever that's preventing. And so we've we've painted this whole picture that everybody is in this category. And as we all know, not everybody is, and not everything is a one or a zero or black and white. There are so many shades of grey. And trying to understand that and trying to move that in the right direction sometimes doesn't happen as fast as you'd like, but at the same time, it's getting the best product because you're getting that diversity of thought to be able to get what is the right improvements. 

And people realize that there probably is some imperfections in how we do business. There's quite a bit. Embracing that and asking those folks that are closest to the problem how to fix it rather than, well, I've figured this out. I'm going to tell you how to fix it. Sometimes it doesn't get the best results.

Justin Beals:  One of my feelings about the pressure cooker, the thing that's adding pressure to this particular situation is the nature of social media and kind of the attention economy. It's almost like instead of actual outcome, I think the audience for this information and the people that produce information for that audience are looking more for even less than the sound bite. We used to complain about that, but down to the Instagram post or the meme that they can virally infect the culture with.

Mike LeFever: Yeah, it is really quite something that one of the biggest things and we've we've gotten and I was at a security conference brief and a cipher brief conference where one of the former OD and I said, you know, and kind of jokingly, you know, don't have a tooth decay. have a truth decay problem. 

And the biggest fear is we're not even going to believe our own information and critical thinking that's required to be able to get we through what is true and what is, you know, we can't even agree on some of the truths, which is pretty scary, you know, from the perspective and how influencing media and where you read it at and where do you ingest it and how do you appeal to that to get those people to get all of us to be critical of thinking about what is true and how do we resolve the information that we're being told or that's presented out there. 

And when you see the Third world actors that are spinning it and using potential AI bots and others to be able to influence those sources and targeting that is quite revealing and kind of, boy, how do you address that? How do you make sure people are aware that, in fact, they might be getting manipulated by a third-party source or what have you to lean in a particular direction on that site?

And then you get into this bias, know, almost like command decision making bias that you're hearing what you want to hear and that even biases you even more rather than, here are the facts and then making a weighted statement.

Justin Beals: Yeah, it's an interesting conversation because we've had, again, I think there's an arc to history on this, I think about the printing press sometimes and how that changed the nature of information access, but also who could say what? Like anybody could start to print whatever they wanted. It caused all kinds of interesting chaos.

Mike LeFever: Exactly.

Justin Beals: And then we kind of got our lines of communication ironed out. had editorial boards, there were periodicals that you could trust and other ones that were, you know, the rag on the corner as you're getting on the subway. But we're back at that, that, you know, situation. And I was talking with a colleague the other day and we were talking about the, this new security issue of information laundering where we can infect AI models that are becoming the new search engines that speak with authority mostly to get you to agree to that.

Like they're algorithmically designed to get you to agree, not to give you truth.

Mike LeFever:  And to feed them the information that you wanted to bias their processing on how they evaluate it. know, when CHAT GPT first started out, the error rates were pretty huge. You know, now with the refinements and expertise, but then you have, well, can I influence that? And we're discovering that yes, you can influence those pretty, yeah. You can really amplify a particular leaning from some of the sources that they're coming from.

Yeah, this is fascinating. It's interesting times to say the least. It's a Chinese curse. May you live in interesting times. I think we're in that part there.

Justin Beals: Yeah, it is, yeah.

By the way, I've seen this teardown process in another market. I think I watched it in education from like 98 in K-12 through like even today, where there were a lot of business folks that had made some money in the technology space saying, I'm going to come into education. I'm going to revolutionize it by ripping it all apart. But then, when they dig in, they realize that there's a science to education and a way it works. And we're all human. Certain things are immutable. The tech helps, but it doesn't ameliorate good learning at the end of the day. Yeah.

Mike LeFever: Yeah. And then, you know, I mean, we've gone through those where, you know, oh, you can learn it all from online, not realizing how much classroom and, I know we did that in the Navy where, you know, we said, oh, we can do all this. And the result wasn't the same, and how each of us learned separately and learned that. Yeah, it is. It's yeah, I think we're we're definitely in interesting times. And how do you navigate through this?

Justin Beals: One of the things that I think is near and dear to your heart, or at least it's been an important part of your accomplishments for our country, has been in generating good diplomatic ties and relationships with other countries. And I know you have some concerns about some of the USAID decisions. And we talk about, first off, what you felt like the mission of USAID was and why that mattered for us.

Mike LeFever: Yeah, I had the first exposure to it really when I was pulled off my strike group to go lead the earthquake relief effort in Pakistan and see USAID and disaster assistance recovery teams and what that and using at the time it was really fascinating because Secretary Rumsfeld was the secretary of defense and I remember him coming over and visiting the sites that we'd set up the mash hospitals and using military equipment and his comment was is man I don't think this is not what we're supposed to do. We're a war fighting vehicle. But the effect that you had in providing that military assistance, that 911 force that no one else can provide, was such a goodwill. 

We had the highest approval rating ever in Pakistan during the earthquake relief because they would see what they characterized our helicopters, the Chinooks as angels of mercy, because it was providing goods that, and we were providing an air bridge that hadn't been seen since the Berlin War to provide goods and sustain population centers were cut off from the world as well as providing the medical assistance and aid that was required. And it was those, that soft power, that was so influential, you know, winning hearts and minds that we were looking at. 

And so when I see the USA cut, and, know, for example, just recently in Myanmar, you know, this devastating event and nowhere did you hear about USAID support to that, and you hear about people that were working that, unfortunately were let go the following day or even in the same day that they were writing contracts and be able to provide support and aid that really is impactful. 

Because I saw from the earthquake, you know, lo and behold, I was sent back a couple of years later and here's the floods. And I'm in some of the same areas that we operated in the earthquake. tribal leaders and population knew very well, you know, what was happening and said, you know, in a lot of ways, gosh, you are providing more support than my own government and your angels of mercy are back. And, you know, thank you, United States, and, you know, what we were doing.

So it is an interesting problem set that I think we're losing a lot of the soft power influence that we could do. I'm sure as you look at the books, geez, you're spending whatever millions of dollars for AIDS research or population. And yes, it seems outrageous, and it's a great soundbite on the news. But the underlying thing is that you're helping save populations and some other things with the vaccines, with some of the other goods that we were providing. And so, that I worry about because the influence and it's ripe for other people to influence those. Yeah. I remember in Pakistan, I mean, I was around the corner from some of the basically terrorists front organizations that were also winning hearts and minds, trying to influence that. And, know, much better. Do we have that influence rather than, the nefarious one that's influencing populations to be extremists in the future. 

So I worry about that and you know kind of what we're doing with some of our coalitions and allies throughout time is these things were you know in place for a reason and in knowing that you can't do anything by yourself really alone anymore and so the isolationism concerns me and from this standpoint of the relationships that we developed over hundreds and thousands of years sharing each other's treasures of life and of their family and sons and daughters in combat. To see that all start to get frayed really is concerning for me.

Justin Beals: Now, that's gotta be frustrating. Yeah, I have this thought in my head that it is really impossible to understand how something works by blowing it up. Like, it doesn't, it's not a good way, right? Like, if you wanna know why soft power is valuable or why it's important, taking it away and see what goes wrong is not an appropriate test harness, I think.

Mike LeFever:

It's one method to figure out what's important in life. Here, me take, let me pull this part away.

Justin Beals: But there's a certain amount of risk, right? And the one that I hold forefront in my mind is it puts US soldiers' lives at risk, I believe, Mike. This is my opinion. Because we now don't have that friendly relationship, which could be antagonistic. Then, to your point, we may have a terrorist organization generating thoughts or basically, people joining their military to fight. Yeah. I'd spend the millions to save the lives. That's humble, Justin Beals' humble opinion, but I would, yeah.

Mike LeFever: Yeah, I think it is. there's no doubt about it. I was in the counterterrorism business for quite a bit. there are certain things you do have to have some people go away and prevent it. Although in a lot of ways, I felt as though some of the soft power solutions were far more effective at a greater scale than some of the kinetic options that we were employing at the time. 

Not that you can't do one or the other, it's the combination of both that really solves the problem. But to pull out the soft power is, think, is going to be a difficult one with just seeing what kinetics will do for influencing the environment.

Justin Beals: Yeah, and you were very fair in mentioning, certainly many of us could look at some of the ways that money might have been spent on what as not being the most effective use of dollars spent, absolutely, and good experts figuring out what the most effective use of government funds is. It's probably something both you and I would like to see in our government. yeah. Yeah.

Mike LeFever: Yes, big time. And so there's a lot of ways you can argue with what they're trying to do and trying to look at it. I think probably the methodology of how they're going about it or the sequence that I think is causing such consternation in the workforce and uncertainty. You see it, whether it's economically in the stock markets or in personnel and work, with somewhat broad guidance that sometimes needs Okay, is there, you're seeing many things that are being challenged now in the courts that had we, maybe there was a way to take a little bit more time to verify that, okay, here's what you need to do.

 And here are some of the laws you need to change if you wanna change this type of apparatus or how do you go about this? And some of it is challenging to see what's going on.

Justin Beals: Yeah, I do. think you said something at the beginning of our conversation that we've been in a constitutional crisis before. This is not the first one, but it is concerning. And I do think we're missing sometimes concepts like the rule of law, separation of powers, and some of the things that have, I mean, there are, I think, there are some challenges in the constitution. It's not an absolutely perfect document, but.

But it has lasted us in a very resilient way and created a lot of opportunity for people at scale. 300 million people. Yeah.

Mike LeFever: Right. Yeah. And the idea that it has some underlying understanding that you have a basic understanding that you're going to adhere to that in good purposes. And it doesn't seem, yeah, I think when I see what's happening in courts and executive and legislative, you know, how the forefathers designed it to be a balance. And right now, that seems to be a little bit skewed.

Folks aren't executing, I feel like legislation isn't doing their job that's supposed to appropriate, authorize money and how they do that. The executive branch or what they can influence in the judicial branch and then the respect that they would have honoring the outcomes or decisions of those, know, the guy that got deported improperly. 

The idea that they're eliminating some freedom of speech with a new source not allowed to be in there. And the judge says, no, they're not yet at the recent visit, dignitary visit, they weren't even allowed in the room. So it's those things that are concerning that I watched it in other countries where I served, that I was kind of like, whoa, is not a, and we're not in a healthy state. And what are those indicators that lead to challenges in democracy.

Justin Beals: Yeah, it's a garden we have to tend as a population, as a community together. And I'm certainly interested in working with my fellow citizens here to try and find the best solutions. Yeah.

Mike LeFever: Yeah, that's been like a cry or at least, and where, know, what is it that I can get involved in? How do I, how do I use my voice to, to, you know, to reinforce or to, you know, highlight some of the concerns and how do I get that response? And, you know, there are probably things working in the background, but you're just kind of like, Ooh, boy, there's a, there's a lot going on. And how do you, how do you make sure that in this, that over time it'll shift in the right direction.

Justin Beals:  Yeah, it has been my experience where certainly all of us create our own realities on some level. In my lifetime, know, my parents were very religious. I'm not religious, that's a, we get along swimmingly these days, but it was a tension and we've learned to navigate a disagreement. think some days, know, broadly in the United States, we're like, okay.

What do we have to agree on and what can we be okay not for a while? Yes.

Mike LeFever: to have civil discourse and to acknowledge, okay, we have disagreements. And I think that's also part of the diplomacy is the understanding that have that fair and open conversation, to hear that and to acknowledge each other. I don't know whether or not, but at least to hear it. And I think I worry that we're at times where we're I'm not sure we're hearing both sides of it or able to listen or we've characterized such extremes. 

And I truly believe, think probably most of it, 70 or 80 % are probably in that middle row that, you know,  there is quite a bit of common ground. And so I think that would be the fun part to tackle those things that we all want. And I think in the big schema things, it's the same principles. It's just, again, how we go about it.

But how we've made this so polarized, it's just disheartening.

Justin Beals: I wanted to talk about another area. We'll talk outside the United States for a second, although it's all letter connected, right, Mike, at the end of the day. But I, with your expertise, I have been absolutely enthralled with, of course, war is always horrible, but what's happening in the Ukraine-Russia conflict? I mean, from a military history perspective, this is amazing what Ukraine has done, I feel like.

Mike LeFever: It's phenomenal. And I had the good fortune about a year and a half ago to go over to Ukraine and visit and be able to have conversations with the leadership of Ukraine and the fight that they were carrying out after they got invaded by Russia. And it was just fascinating, the innovation, the drive of the resiliency of the people to watch what was going on and to sustain it in the sense of the environment of the support that they were receiving and so forth. 

But yeah, right now it's really, it's really confusing the shift that we've had to almost, you know, what appears to be rhetoric that Putin and in the information or information or disinformation campaign is influenced so much of what we're what we're trying to do, you know.

Justin Beals: Yeah.

Mike LeFever: I don't think anybody is in disagreement that just getting to a peace agreement is absolutely the best thing to do. know, whether it's there, whether it's in Israel, whether it's the Middle East, whatever the case may be. But boy, the rapid shift and the uncertainty and again, the facts of what happened and what is happening and the second and third order effects if Ukraine falls, what's the rest of Europe look like? What those entail, and the enemy and my enemy is my friend. And so you see these unnatural relationships that are forming with Iran, Russia, China, and North Korea. It's quite interesting, to say the least.

Justin Beals: Yeah, when the world gets divvied up like this along these lines, we get really worried because the conflagration can spread quickly as we have done in the past. mean, we are apt to repeat. Yeah.

Mike LeFever: Yeah. Yeah. So it's just disheartening to watch, you know, the incredible, you know, effort by Ukraine, you know, that I think at the beginning of this, you everybody thought it would be just a matter of days, much like, you know, the Crimean Peninsula, you know, take over the government fall, they captured land and away they go. And so now we're in, you know, two plus years and it's like, hmm, this is kind of interesting. But what they've been able to do.

You know, even a country without an iron mark, being a Navy guy, he's kind of like, you know, with a set of drones, what they've done in the Black Sea is phenomenal.

Justin Beals: It is wild, isn't it? That Ukraine has done something, feel like, where they've harnessed tech in an efficiency modality, where just this little bit of, I like how you describe it, kinetic firepower can, well, I think they've sank a couple of battleships, or they've held waves of attackers at bay with precision drone strikes.

Mike LeFever: Oh yeah, it's phenomenal. to see the factories and what they were doing and the speed of innovation that they're doing, I think it's an important lesson for us. For our, as we're watching this, like, holy smokes, how rapidly they're changing, how the battle lines are changing. Their psych was almost every 30 days. The enemy would adjust to the new frequency, the new tactics, and they'd have to readjust, and the adaptability and the rapidity at which they were doing that, and it's really changed, I think in the nature of warfare, what we're looking at. 

And I know the services are looking at, boy, how do we do this speed of processing and innovation? Cause we need to do that. You know, I don't know whether or not we're going to have the, you know, big competition with, you know, big armies battling each other. think it's going to be more like what we're seeing now and what's happening in the Middle East and the Israel and Palestine.

Justin Beals: Yeah, that's of course another very difficult one. And I know this is an incredibly touchy subject. There's an immense amount of history to it, long ago and very recent as well. I think what I struggle with the most, and maybe this is a lesson for the United States, is I feel like for both nations, it's more the leadership wanted to go to battle than necessarily the people did and it created and now it's spun out of control.

Mike LeFever: Yeah, it's fascinating to watch. In the end, grain, like you said, this is such an emotional issue and dates back historically to some of the solutions. I saw that a little bit in Pakistan and India in 1947 when they had to... It's amazing the cultural aspects and historical aspects to how much that influences some of the decision-making and some of the effort.

And then you throw in the dynamic of the extremism, and that dynamic of kind of almost an inferior force being able to do so much damage and harm. You know, there were epic events that occurred to start this, but boy, it's there doesn't seem to be any off-ramps to be able to kind of bring this back down, take the temperature.

Justin Beals:  That's the most dangerous part about it is if there's no way to come to an agreement, find peace again, start to rebuild trust, go the other direction, as you pointed out, with trust, it could just malaise into trench warfare. I like we've been there. We've seen it.

Mike LeFever: Yeah. Yeah. It is. It's fascinating. was on an event that I was over there probably about a year and a half before this started. And there was this almost understanding of they were signaling each other what they needed in ways. And it was almost a tit for tat at different times. But it was at a presentable level that had responses that they could both work in, almost like a compromise.

They both made their points. They both got their, this is what I did for my national interests or personal interests, and I was able to keep a lid on it. And I'm not sure that they fully realized what would happen when they conducted this event. And now it's, boy, it's epic proportions that can't seem to get it back under control.

Justin Beals: I'm gonna assume that as people grow in power, they feel like they have more power. In truth, once you launch some of these things, you are not in control of them anymore and they take on a life of their own.

Mike LeFever: Yeah, the issue, you know, there's almost a sense of we've lost this ability to compromise in some areas. I think we've gotten to these almost like nuclear options like, it's either all or nothing. And so, you know, how do you weave that? How was that done in the past? You know, potentially, you know, like you said, history, history repeats itself in a lot of ways. But we're at a point where It doesn't seem like there's any settling in the sides.

Justin Beals: Yeah. I love how you think about that. Because I wonder if there's a bug in our system sometimes of majority kind of rule. And I've been a big fan lately of looking at other voting style systems like in Ireland, and Maine has been adopting more stack rank voting, where we can find more moderate decisions, like more precision in the voting instead of feeling like winners and losers.

Mike LeFever: Correct. Yeah, I think, you know, I think that's another thing, you know, as we look at things, the gerrymandering, you know, was a thing that, you know, caught my attention many years ago, that doesn't seem to rectify it. And both sides are guilty of it. That it's really doesn't seem like it's, it's how they've driven drawn the different dimensions to make it a very polarized world rather than a more homogeneous that represents the middle of the road or both views to be able to, and you're not gonna please everybody, but the idea is, how do you do that? 

You look back in history, when Congress, I've heard many folks, they've even heard Leon Panetta talk about, when was it that we stopped having dinners with each other? Because they were in DC together, they'd go have dinners and the stuff that happened behind the scenes, so much more, and now it's I don't know whether we are seeing that, the bipartisanship to be able to get to a win-win solution for, and how that, know, it's supposed to work that, you know, it might be a little left, it might be a little right, but it isn't the far extremes that get to a solution. And so, how do you compromise, and you both declare victory? You don't get exactly what you want. And I think that's, you know, that's one of the things I learned, you know, and whether it's internet whether it was the earth is like, wow, there's so different points of view and you come at it from different perspectives, but how do you make sure that you get it in the right quadrant that you're not going to satisfy everybody, but at least it moves in the right direction. 

You know, great advice from a senior executive when I first became a flag officer was back in the building. says, Mike, let me, you know, now you're the flag officer, but he says, you know, being right doesn't mean you get your own way.

What is perfect advice? Vinnie was right!

Justin Beals:  Yeah, that's really good. I feel like that's true in our business work too. Yeah, absolutely. And I think the other thing that stands out to me is like, there are a few avenues, but only a few where, you know, it's like, one person is the winner and one person the loser and almost all environments It's either win-win or lose-lose. 

Like there is no like, I won you lost. In business, that's often true. I certainly win the deal, but you know, if I create a bad name for myself in the marketplace, it's a lose-lose. Yeah.

Mike LeFever: Yeah, it is funny. But we both, you're not trained to lose. Command and Mastery, you what second place means? You're the first loser.

Justin Beals:

I know, not to me either, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, that's right. I talk to my board about this every once in a while. say, want you to know that I'm very competitive. I just rap it in a genteel southerner style. But I angst at night just like anybody else does.

Mike LeFever: Yeah. But it's true in every relationship. There's going to be gives and takes, know, kind of where do you end up? You know, it's always remarkable in whatever environment you're in, there is a sense of give and takes, but to eventually get to solution.

Justin Beals: Mike, before we wrap up, I thought I'd just ask you one question. You've been in some very chaotic situations in life where the stakes were incredibly high, the highest of stakes, and you've navigated them successfully. What advice would you give of those of us in leadership positions and just navigating chaotic situations? Where can we ground ourselves?

Mike LeFever: Yeah, think one of the big things that sticks in my mind is what is that, whatever, the strategic end state or what's that end game that you're looking for? What is it that, you know, at the end of the day, where you want to be? And as we just talked, sometimes that's a securitas route to get there. And being able to accept that and knowing that in the big scheme of things, you're going to have up and downs in a relationship.

But at the end of the day, where do want that to end? And so as I look in these chaotic systems, it's kind of like, okay, the populists elect it, a clear mandate. We want to have change. We want to see change. Okay, we're on that path. How do we want, and again, this idea that where we see how this ends and knowing it's going to be a little crazy in between.

But stay focused on that end game and realize to be able to have that resilience to take a look and accept those, that it's not the end on each of these paths and turns. And how do you put those things in place that still continue to get you to that end state that you're looking for? And keep focused on that about what it is that you want to have.

And it's more of a strategic, almost an operational strategic look. Because if you watch the day to day, whether it's the stock market or whatever, or the tariffs, you're just getting batted around in the box for a while. Just take yourself out of the box. Take a look ahead and kind of go, OK, here's where we want to go. How do I then use my resources to be able to to keep that and to keep your resilience up and not be brought into the tactical, real tactical and get on the up and down swings that everybody else is riding right now and try to stay clear-minded in that regard.

Justin Beals:  Excellent advice as always, Mike. I am so grateful for your mentorship and your expertise around this, and also for just your comradeship in working together. Thanks, Mike, for joining us again on Secure Talk.

Mike LeFever: Justin, this has been great. It is. It's kind of like being able to talk openly and kind of like the concerns that we're all facing and for everybody and to try to keep it in perspective of what's going on and where we've been and how we can still proceed and get to the part where we want to be at. But thank you so much. This is always fun, and it's always enjoyable. Thank you, my friend.

Justin Beals: Good. My pleasure, and we'll talk to you again soon. Have a great day.

Mike LeFever: All right. Thank you.